They call this "choice in American Motorcycles."

"BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast." (boxerfanatic) 08/04/2013 at 23:53 • Filed to: Two Wheels good, American Motorcycles.

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The 2014 Indian Chief.

Oooooooh! Another rolling nostalgia machine.

The other choice being the OTHER nostalgia machine.

There is about as much choice in American Motorcycles, as there is in American Politics.

A false dichotomy to choose between A, or A'. Same stuff, with a different name and enough minute details to give the illusion of a difference.

Not really that much of a choice at all... just a choice of name.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:00

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I miss Buell :(

daender > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:01

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Holy cow, I didn't know Indian was back. This "retro" phase ain't too bad at all.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:01

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So just buy a non-american bike and vote third party.

I do one of those. The other requires more money than I've got.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:12

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may I introduce you to ...

motus...made in america

vdub_nut: scooter snob > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/05/2013 at 00:14

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I have a friend with a Buell lightning, thing was seckzy.

Then there's the Blast...

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:24

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not nearly retro enough.

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/05/2013 at 00:33

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He started his own company. look up Eric Buell Cycles.

pdthedeuce > Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. 08/05/2013 at 00:38

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indeed, you are correct sir.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 08/05/2013 at 00:40

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That is one way to go.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > pdthedeuce 08/05/2013 at 00:44

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Not bad, but ridiculously expensive.

90's/2000s chassis technology.

messy chain drive.

A 50-year old automotive engine, cut in half. (it is basically half a small-block chevy, including pushrods.

At that point, I'd rather cut weight with only two cylinders, and air-cooling, and get a Moto Guzzi.

It still doesn't hold a candle to the tech on this.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. 08/05/2013 at 00:44

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Looks like a nice bike, and it is good to see a US alternative among sport bikes, but the thing has an MSRP of 40k. And I prefer the naked/cafe style of bike like they offered when part of HD.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > vdub_nut: scooter snob 08/05/2013 at 00:46

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Why can't there be a forward-thinking, cutting edge american motorcycle company, and I am talking about even more modern than Motus, and MUCH more affordable than Erik Buell Racing, if it gets off the ground.

And far more affordable than both.

Even if it isn't the highest tech EVAR, it should at least be the best tech per dollar.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:47

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half of a LSX, but yeah.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/05/2013 at 00:48

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40K for a hand built bike with no assurance of future serviceability.

40K is not the price for a mainstream street bike. It is the price for a rich man's garage trophy.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 00:51

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...and compared to bmw and Harley, 30k ain't THAT high...

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > pdthedeuce 08/05/2013 at 01:08

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That K1600GT that I just pictured...

With the most advanced motorcycle suspensions on the market and low-maintenance, clean shaft drive, and bolt-on rear wheel...

With the most compact and powerful I6 DOHC engine ever designed and fitted to a motorcycle.

With the world's first lean-steering projector headlight...

2013 MSRP starting at $21,200

8800$ price difference between that and a 30K Motus with less tech, will buy a nice used lighter cafe racer or sporting standard runabout (SV1000S perhaps), and more than cover a used BMW R1100S, or R1200S.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 01:18

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i'm sorry, I thought you were actually looking for choices in American motorcycles.

i'm not in love with the motus, in fact, i'm a Suzuki guy.

birddog73 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 01:22

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That's a sweet friggin Injun!

desertdog5051 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 03:00

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Doomed to fail as the other Indian reincarnation bikes. Young riders have no knowledge of the brand and the older riders have already decided what they like.

McMike > desertdog5051 08/05/2013 at 08:10

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I'm with you on that... How many times have we seen Indian resurrected in the last 20 years? Three times? (runs to internet)

(panting heavily, I'm back) I just saw that Polaris bought them two years ago and have been making bikes in Iowa. Hopefully Polaris can keep them alive this time. Oddly enough Polaris also owns Victory... Hopefully that will help with the build quality and the availability of parts/resources.

Is anyone else surprised that there isn't a movement to rid the brand of the "Indian" name? Seems everything that references Native Americans is a target these days.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 09:36

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Counterpoint: round cylinder finning and sweepy fenders with fuller cover are sexy.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > desertdog5051 08/05/2013 at 10:10

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While I am a younger rider, I do have knowledge of and an appreciation for Indians.

I just won't spend my own money on one, that's all.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 10:11

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Countercounterpoint: Cooking your legs due to air-cooled engine, not so much.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 10:20

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Why are the choices for American cycles all Cruisers, or hideously expensive? (Erik Buell's new bike stickers at $40K, and he's only making 100, and the Motus is $37K)

I don't get that...

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 08/05/2013 at 11:24

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Too many people have been conned by Harley Davidson into thinking that bikes need to be simultaneously old-tech due to tradition, and expensive to suggest build quality.

Bikes need to be neither old-tech, nor expensive.

But bikes in the US are no longer an economy option, for a cheaper, simpler, more direct alternative to cars, that due to being lighter, can also be much sportier.

They are a function of conspicuous consumption, and showing off, now.

Harleys, Indians, and even others, like Gold Wing and some metric cruisers, some high-end ducatis, etc... are garage trophies to take out when you want to show off what you have been able to buy (with the same 5 year loan as most people buy CARS with)

BMWs are expensive, but at least they are the pinnacle of tech, and aren't too afraid to try new things, and put engineering into the bike that actually has purpose. I just wish they had properly licensed the Hossack front suspension, rather than waiting until Norman Hossack ran out of money, and didn't renew his patent, and then just copied the Hossack suspension, and called it Duolever. Hossack deserves to be recognized and credited for his SLA front motorcycle suspension.

If i ever get a K1200R-Sport, or any other BMW with a Duolever, I am going to put a Hossack graphic on the sides of the front suspension upright.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > pdthedeuce 08/05/2013 at 11:32

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A 30-37K bike is not a choice.

A bike with that price with less than cutting-edge tech is REALLY not a choice.

Why isn't there an American motorcycle to compete with Suzuki?

(BTW, I really hope the new V-Strom 1000 with the aluminum spar frame spawns a new SV1000S, even if it looks a bit curvy like the Gladius 650.)

But why can't there be an american motorcycle to be a new SV1000S, for $10K or less?

It goes to my larger question, where have all the good, affordable road-bikes gone?

Something that isn't a beak-bike pseudo-offroader that you have to mount up on like a horse, yet that mostly stays on pavement, and would be too bulky and heavy to really be advantageous off-road anyway.

Something that isn't a torture rack track bike that mostly stays on public roads somewhere near the posted speed limit.

Something that isn't a barcalounger cruiser, or ridiculous and unrideable chopper.

Something that isn't a full-bagger that might as well just be a convertible car with four wheels, and not need special clothing and a helmet.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 11:50

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Harley Davidson into thinking that bikes need to be simultaneously old-tech due to tradition, and expensive to suggest build quality.

Sorry, I almost spit coffee at my monitor at the office. My Dad had a 2007 Electra Glide Ultra Classic FTEXABCDEFG which had a fuel injection system that would love to stall the bike when warm and coming to a stop.

I've already had the first "Harley vs. The World" argument with my Dad. The really silly thing is that the main point of contention was as follows:

Me: I have an issue with buying a bike that's practically as expensive as a decently spec'd VW, and is still slow ( See, for instance, the Michigan State Police test results ).
Dad: You can change out the cams and engine programming on a stock Harley to give it good performance.
Me: Why would I need to spend $24K on a bike, and then another $5K on top of that to make it ridable? If I want a faster bike, I don't know, maybe I'd buy it.
Dad: Yeah, but Harley gives the performance parts to the PDs.
Me: Then why isn't that the config tested? That's like my brother saying that his stock VW R32 is reasonably priced, but with $10K of engine work, it's as fast as an M5. ( This is exactly what my brother wanted to do when he owned his R32 -Ed )

I'm going to look at a Triumph Sprint ST 955 tomorrow. Guy is asking $3500 for it, it has 5200 miles on the clock, and I'm handy with a metric socket set. I think it's a great bike for a song.

I'd really like to get a BMW K1600 at some point. Even an R1200RT would be excellent. I'll save for it, before I run off and leave daddy with his stupidly loud pipes.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 08/05/2013 at 11:57

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That is why I said 'suggest' build quality, rather than actually being expensive for the sake of actually HAVING build quality.

One of my favorite H-D sayings that I have heard, and repeated, but don't know the source...

A Harley is the most efficient way to turn gasoline into obnoxiously loud noise, without the side effect of horsepower.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 11:59

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What was funny is that you used "Harley" and "Build Quality" in the same sentence.

Pro tip: Don't drink coffee if someone else is going to make you laugh.

#IWasActuallyAgreeingWithYouThere

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 08/05/2013 at 12:01

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I figured we were in agreement.

I just didn't want to be mistaken by anyone for having claimed that Harley's MSRP actually translated into getting what they would like you to think you are paying for.

That is a good Pro tip, too.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 12:50

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not arguing with you, dude.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > pdthedeuce 08/05/2013 at 12:54

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I'm not arguing with you, either, just a bit of venting about the state of the motorcycle industry.

pdthedeuce > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 12:55

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you are preaching to the choir on that point.

50_Steve > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 14:30

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Victory is a great american motorcycle also.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 50_Steve 08/05/2013 at 15:08

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Victory is a Polaris-owned brand, the same as Indian now is.

And yet another cruiser clone.

Another false choice for those who aren't into cruisers/Harley clones, or skirted clones with a headdress on the front fender instead.

50_Steve > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/05/2013 at 17:34

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What is wrong with cruiser motorcycles? They are comfortable and look good. I have owned both sport bikes and cruisers and each have their good and bad points. Sport bikes are uncomfortable to ride especially when you are older but they are very fast. When i was young I preferred sport bikes. Now I prefer cruisers. Harleys are high priced, victory is a good alternative if you want to say american. Polaris is based in Minnisota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_I… . It seems you are looking for a US made sport bike? Harley tried with their buell line and failed as the market is saturated with bikes from japan.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 50_Steve 08/05/2013 at 18:54

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If I wanted that kind of comfort, I would drive a car, and be more comfortable without a helmet, and a better seat.

I don't mind that people have the opportunity to buy or modify cruiser motorcycles. That is fine. Liberty is liberty.

But in most American branded bikes, there is no ALTERNATIVE to cruiser motorcycles.

Harley Davidson, Victory/Indian (both under Polaris' umbrella) are all cruisers, and all very much alike. The only people who think they are drastically different are focusing on the brand name, not the purpose and configuration of the bike.

You seem to split between cruiser and sport. Most people think that a Sport bike is a race-replica bike, like a GSX-R, R1, CBR, S1000RR, and others that are really street-legal race bikes. Of course they are uncomfortable, they are meant for going all-out on the track, for a limited amount of time, in the hands of athlete riders who are usually moderate to small in stature, and thus relatively light weight.

They are so fast, that most of their potential, technology input, and money to pay for that tech, is wasted on the road, with marginal and dirty pavement, a speed limit, and idiotic other drivers causing potentially deadly traffic problems.

There used to be a class of motorcycles, sometimes called sport-standards, that were closer to a base-line motorcycle, but had ample power, well sorted, but not race-calibrated suspension, and humane ergonomics and a seat that could be endured over an 800 mile day.

Some call them sport touring bikes, although that can go toward bikes with lots of luggage attached, that lean more toward touring than sport.

Cruisers are comfortable, but the geometry is more for style and comfort than for actually turning the bike in a curve. The longer the front end, and the longer the handle bars, the worse it gets. The lower the seat, and further forward the pegs, the worse handling gets. And the engines are drastically imbalanced, and significantly old-tech, for the sake of tradition. Some purposefully omit rear suspension entirely.

There has to be a middle ground between a style and comfort cruiser, that not everyone wants the style, and not everyone wants a bike for the purpose of comfort at the high expense of handling.

... and bikes that have ultimate handling on a track, and more power than a mere mortal can try to use, and demand that the rider contort to the shape of the bike.

There used to be bikes like that. Bikes like BMW's R1100S. Bikes like Triumph Sprint RS and ST. Like Aprilia Falco, Ducati ST, and Suzuki SV1000S and the TLS before it.

They are getting scarce. If a Polaris owned brand actually built something modern like that, that really would be a new choice in American Motorcycles, that isn't just another cruiser for buyers who already have many cruiser options, and pretty much the sole focus of american motorcycles.

There isn't a motorcycle built by an american company, perhaps Buell used to, (but they still had antique H-D engines) that would compete with a BMW, Ducati, Aprilia, Triumph, or Japanese big-4 build. Not at the price, not with modern tech, and 21st century styling. Hell, not many american motorcycles have styling that originated in the second half of the 20th century... and we're beyond that time period.